Thinking about Inclusive Service Design with Elle Beange from Deloitte Digital

To kick off Service Design YAP's second series  we knew that we needed to tackle a heavy weight issue. Having collaborated with the UK charity Scope, and Deloitte Digital earlier in the year we knew that Inclusive Design would be a great topic to focus on.

In this episode we talk with Deloitte's Elle Beange, who has worked in the area of inclusive  and accessible design for all of her career.  We talk about the difference between universal design and inclusive design and Elle provides some great examples of companies walking the walk when it comes to inclusive design.

We also talk about designing a more inclusive hiring approach for designers. How can we assure equity in the interview process and what tactics can employers put into play to assure that everyone gets the opportunity to shine?


Further Reading

Microsoft's Inclusive Design site is a fantastic resource if you're looking to learn more about the subject.

The Purple Pound: Scope's article about understanding the value of  customers with disabilities.

The Navilens project: Enabling  blind and partially sighted people through tech.

Global Disability Innovation Hub: Global Disability Innovation Hub (GDI Hub) is an Academic Research and Practice Centre accelerating disability innovation for a more just world.

The Newman Holiday Trust: One of Elle's favourite jobs, the trust provides children with disabilities with unforgettable holidays.

Its not that Radical, by Mikaela Loach looking at what real climate activism needs to look like today.

99% Invisible podcast episode about curb cuts and disability activism in the US.

Service Design YAP is developed and produced by the Service Design Network UK Chapter.
Its aim is to engage and connect the wider Service Design community.

• Episode Host: Stephen Wood
• Production Assistance: Jean Watanya

Transcript

Stephen Wood: [00:00:00] Welcome to the first episode of the second series of Service Design Yap. I'm your host, Stephen Wood, and in this episode I talk with Elle Beange, a designer from Deloitte Digital, who specializes in inclusive design. Elle is a vocational inclusive designer, having studied the subject for her MSc and then applied her skills through professional practice and through voluntary work.

Stephen Wood: Inclusive design is hard, but it's not something that we should shy away from as designers. And in our conversation, Elle gives us some great examples of companies that have tackled inclusive design and created value for all. I hope you enjoy listening to this conversation as much as I enjoyed speaking with Elle.[00:01:00] 

Stephen Wood: Today, I'm joined by Elle Beange. How are you doing, Elle? 

Elle Beange: I'm very well, How are you doing?

Stephen Wood: I'm doing very well. I'm looking forward to some summer weather in the UK. Are you ready for our service design yap quickfire round? Absolutely. Brilliant. So let's get to know you. So the first question is for you, was it design school or was it on the job learning?

Elle Beange: Yeah, good question. My background is quite varied. So I'm a service designer with a specialism in inclusive design and accessibility, focusing on user centricity, but I did study design at university and then focused in on disability and innovation, which was my master's with the Global Disability Innovation Hub.

Elle Beange: And since then I've worked in several different design sectors. 

Stephen Wood: And where did you study your master's? 

Elle Beange: It was at UCL but facilitated by the Global Disability Innovation Hub. 

Stephen Wood: Oh, fantastic. Can you tell us a little bit more about the Global Disability Innovation Hub? 

Elle Beange: Yeah, so they're just an organisation that focus on disability and inclusion on a global level.

Elle Beange: And they do different talks and events and things like that and work with different communities around the world to prioritise [00:02:00] inclusion and accessibility. 

Stephen Wood: So after you finish your masters, tell us a little bit about your first job and then tell us about your favourite job so far.

Elle Beange: It was my placement year from university where I worked at a charity called Demand and we did bespoke design and manufacture for disabled people, one off equipment where appropriate solutions weren't commercially available. And I absolutely loved that, but I would have to say that my favourite job is a voluntary role that I have currently outside of my sort of day to day job with Deloitte with a charity called the Newman Holiday Trust.

Elle Beange: So I'm a holiday organiser for the trust and we run week long residential respite holidays for disabled children across the UK, completely volunteer led and donation funded and I'm responsible for organising the London holiday. And it's just my absolute favorite thing in the entire world. 

Stephen Wood: Fantastic.

Stephen Wood: And where are you going this year? 

Elle Beange: We're based out of a boarding school called St. John's Beaumont in Windsor and we use that as our hub and then do like day trips to places like Chessington that the kids just absolutely love. 

Stephen Wood: Fantastic. And how many kids do you have when you take them out on holiday?

Elle Beange: We are taking 22 kids this year. 

Stephen Wood: Okay, so you've got 22 kids with very different [00:03:00] requirements going to a park with roller coasters and high adrenaline rides. 

Elle Beange: I absolutely assure you we do thorough risk assessment. 

Stephen Wood: Yeah, no, I yeah, I'm just thinking it's the, you're gonna have moments of joy there and it's going to be absolutely fantastic.

Stephen Wood: Absolutely wonderful, yeah. As long as it's dry, that's all I'm saying. And if we think about your first role that you played. You talked about creating these one off solutions one off products for people who have disabilities where there are gaps where they're on commercially available products.

Stephen Wood: Can you remember one of those use cases that's really memorable? It's one that you love talking about. 

Elle Beange: Yeah, They were all memorable, to be honest. It was such a wonderful charity and all of the clients were so wonderful. But I think the one that sticks in my mind the most was this little girl who was learning to walk.

Elle Beange: I think that she had cerebral palsy. At home, she used to learn those foot placement and things like that. But because she was so diddy, they had to stand up, press go on the [00:04:00] treadmill, and then put her onto a moving treadmill. And it just felt quite risky to them. So what they wanted us to do was create like a frame around the treadmill.

Elle Beange: Bearing in mind she was quite a small child, children grow at such fast rates. We built this like frame that went around the treadmill that was high adjustable and like width adjustable and stuff like that so that they could adapt it to her. And we also created like a remote control that connected to the treadmill itself so that someone could be sitting behind her on a bench and press go.

Elle Beange: while they had her secured. And that was, I think, something that was particularly memorable. It was a really wonderful project. I think it made quite a big impact. 

Stephen Wood: Yeah, I'm just imagining, yeah, trying to work out how you can run quickly from the front of a treadmill to the back of a treadmill in order to catch someone.

Stephen Wood: It's not something that is designed for that application. But often you think, actually, why haven't people designed something? There are universal needs around recuperation, rehabilitation, or even learning. mobility, but because the volume isn't there, the scale isn't there for manufacture, it's either not available or [00:05:00] available at such a huge price that it becomes almost impossible for people to afford the kit they need.

Stephen Wood: That's a great story. So on the subject of jobs, What's the best interview question you've ever been asked? 

Elle Beange: This is a really good question, and honestly I don't know that I have an answer to it, because I find interviews absolutely petrifying, but to turn it on its head slightly, relatively recently actually a couple of years ago now, I've given an interview question that is good to ask back to the interviewer, which is basically, in your opinion, are there any gaps in my experience or knowledge that make you feel that I might not be the right person for the role, in order to have the opportunity to address those, and that's I suppose reassure if there's anything that they think you maybe haven't covered already and I just thought that was such a clever and like bold question to send back, not really the answer to the question that you asked, but. 

Stephen Wood: No, I think it's a great response because I think in interviews, as an interviewer, you want to make sure you're getting the best out of the candidate so they can shine. But also, you've got a very short period of time to make your decision.

Stephen Wood: So by surfacing any [00:06:00] concerns, they can be addressed there. Maybe you've misinterpreted something. But I think you're right, it also shows that you're looking for a culture where you can have conversations. It's not just around, this is what we need doing, JFDI. It's around, okay, how can we explore this, how can we make sure we're getting to the right situation, and hopefully, if you're working in a design role, And that should be the type of culture people are fostering.

Stephen Wood: I think you answered it perfectly. You've talked about not liking interviews. Do you think that there are ways that employers could make interviews easier for you? 

Elle Beange: Yes, absolutely. As someone who's neurodivergent, I really struggle when I'm put on the spot and put under pressure. And I appreciate that's difficult for lots of the population, but it's particularly difficult when you have a brain that works a little bit different to others.

Elle Beange: And when you have a brain that works in a way that A system isn't really built for and I think that I suppose just the way that people present themselves in interviews is Really makes a difference to your comfort levels and how much you can relax into the experience but also the [00:07:00] most fundamental thing for me personally and from what I've heard from a lot of other neurodivergent people as well as Providing questions in advance to allow people to actually cognitively process what is being asked of them because it can be really difficult to interpret things when you're on the spot and not prepared for I suppose and it sometimes feels like there's this fear that you'll come across as if you're stumbling and don't actually have an answer or are trying to make it up on the spot but actually it's not that at all it's just that you haven't had the opportunity to process that information and come up with something that's helpful and relevant I suppose.

Stephen Wood: And you talk about the way people present themselves at interviews, is there something that makes an interview more difficult? 

Elle Beange: Sort of certain ways that people present themselves, like if they're not very chatty, if they do a lot of smiling and nodding and like responding and things like that, I just think creating like a more conversational environment and a space where people feel like they can be themselves and I suppose express opinions and things like that is really conducive with getting to know people.

Elle Beange: A potential employee in the first place and also it is a two sided thing as a potential employee You want to know [00:08:00] that's the right fit for you, too So I guess like creating that space to have that dialogue and feel supported 

Stephen Wood: Yeah, absolutely. If you don't feel that comfortable in the interview There's probably a good chance that you're not going to feel that comfortable in the culture as well 

Elle Beange: And it sometimes feels like if people are holding something back, then it's is there something missing here that I need to find out about this job that you might then find out when it's too late kind of thing.

Stephen Wood: Yeah, so I think I'll see your question about, do you have any concerns about me? And I will raise you the question about, what questions do you think I should have asked about the organization that I haven't? Yeah, you put them on the front foot to get them giving you. Questions. What do I need to know?

Stephen Wood: What's different about this organization? And sometimes you get some really interesting responses. Sometimes you get very guarded responses, which again, for me, is an orangey red flag. 

Elle Beange: Or it feels like they're just reading from a template. For example, I always ask about inclusion and accessibility and equality and diversity, et cetera, policies and how they prioritize those as an organization and how they support, colleagues with [00:09:00] disabilities for us as one example.

Elle Beange: And if they sound like they are literally reading from their policy or manual, then it's. How much is this really practiced? 

Stephen Wood: Yeah, and it's can you give me an example of where you've succeeded, or where you've discovered something that you weren't expecting? If they can give you a great example about how they've worked with colleagues to make things easier for them, make things equitable for them, and maybe even where they've made some mistakes as well, because I don't think anyone gets it right 100 percent of the time, that's a great way to work out whether they're just, as you say, reading from the book.

Stephen Wood: Yeah. Lovely. If we think about you in a pub or cafe of your choice, with friends from the design profession, what source, book or podcast or article do you recommend more than any other? 

Elle Beange: I'm actually a really avid reader and I really especially love exploring like human experiences, particularly those that are different from my own and I'm particularly interested in interconnectivity between people and planet.

Elle Beange: And I think one particular book that I talk about a lot is by [00:10:00] an absolutely incredible author and climate justice activist called Michaela Loach. She's written a book called It's Not That Radical, Climate Action to Transform Our World, and it's effectively about making climate action accessible and attainable for all of us.

Elle Beange: And highlighting the importance of deconstructing capitalism, colonialism, and white supremacy to build a more just and equal world for everyone on this planet. It's just an amazing book, I would really recommend it. 

Stephen Wood: Fantastic. And it sounds like it's covering a huge amount of topics. Is it a big chunky book?

Elle Beange: It's actually not. I think her whole intention, Michaela's whole intention was writing something that was accessible for everyone to demonstrate you don't have to necessarily be this person that dedicates your job to it kind of thing. It doesn't have to necessarily be your day to day role. We can all be activists.

Elle Beange: We can all Do our part and advocate for people globally, that are being most impacted by the climate crisis and explore those Human connections between people and planet and prioritize that because it is so incredibly important and she does just make it incredibly accessible 

Stephen Wood: I think yeah, there are lots of tomes that don't make good beach reading that are quite worthy but if you can find a [00:11:00] book that is easy to engage with and has really Enlightening themes that makes you think differently.

Stephen Wood: That's a rare and wonderful thing. So thank you for that suggestion for some beach reading 

Elle Beange: Yeah, i've read it twice and one of them was on the beach. So It's currently on loan to a friend i've just given it out to everyone that will listen but yeah 

Stephen Wood: So if we think about approaches to design, would you say that you are more aligned to a vision driven design?

Stephen Wood: So a design will have a view of what should be, or are you more aligned to more of a research driven design approach? 

Elle Beange: Yeah, it's an interesting question, and I think it's probably unsurprising given my background, but I think it's absolutely essential that real life people are involved in the development of new products and services at every single stage.

Elle Beange: And I do partly think that what you take from research can be interpreted slightly by applying your own sort of professional design expertise because customers are going to know what they need, but not necessarily like how to meet that need. So I think by [00:12:00] applying that professional design expertise to get to the root of what someone wants can allow you as a designer to come up with innovative ways of delivering that.

Elle Beange: So for example, in workshops that I run with various different users. I often do an activity where I say, if you completely remove constraints of feasibility, cost, anything like that, what is it that you would want? It can be I wish I could pause time for two hours a day and have a bit of time back or I wish I could double my team or get into the root of what it is actually that someone needs rather than expecting them to come up with specific solutions can be really effective.

Elle Beange: It's a mix, 

Stephen Wood: it's the magic wand question. If I gave you a magic wand, what would be the key thing that you would change? And it gives you a view of pain, it gives you an idea of priority as well. And it gives people, because it's like a fantastic thing, people can rise above constraints.

Stephen Wood: When you run workshops with consumers or with clients, typically there's always this gravitational pull back into what is rather than what could be.

Stephen Wood: So if you became independently [00:13:00] wealthy with that magic wand we talked about, which clearly Deloitte have no contractual obligation to wave over you, but if you became independently wealthy, is there something you'd really love to do? 

Elle Beange: What I would really love to be doing, and I do appreciate that this isn't.

Elle Beange: Conducive with sort of a corporate business that need to make profit. But I just think there are so many charities and really small, like grassroot organizations out there that could benefit so much from service design expertise, inclusive design and accessibility expertise and things like that, that could have such vast impact on those small organizations.

Stephen Wood: Fantastic. So if we have anyone in the new government listening, we have a candidate for the Minister for Inclusive Design here then. Let's see if we can help you with that. I'm not sure it's within our gift, but still, we talked about getting rid of constraints. Maybe that should be on the wish list.

Stephen Wood: And the final question then is around, do you have a favorite design framework or design method that you always come back to that [00:14:00] helps you to maybe structure problem solving? 

Elle Beange: I wouldn't necessarily say that I favor any specific rigid design framework, but I do. As I've said before, I really believe in the importance of inclusion through every stage of the design process and that in order to get true inclusion, that intersectionality and diversity of thought is really critical, not only to the people that you research, but also within the design team that you work with too.

Elle Beange: If we're trying to aim to serve diverse populations, we can't just have a completely like carbon copy. team of people that are working on it. You need diversity Within the team that is actually doing the problem solving as well and diversity of thought. 

Stephen Wood: You've talked a little bit about intersectionality Can you tell us what that means to you?

Elle Beange: Yeah, absolutely. So intersectionality is really about Acknowledging that no two people are the same That's the beauty of human diversity really that every single one of us has a unique set of intersectional characteristics that make our Experiences and our outlooks on the world very different You And intersectionality is really important [00:15:00] to acknowledge the differences within those experiences.

Elle Beange: For example, intersectional feminism is something that I feel quite strongly about, which basically means that if we aren't looking at feminism movements through an intersectional lens, then They aren't truly feminist at all. Much of the feminism movements have been white centric or Eurocentric, which ultimately excludes, for example, women of colour and disregards their own experiences of the intersect between race and gender, so that's just one example of intersectionality, but it's really just about being unique, and having different characteristics that build you up to be a woman.

Elle Beange: The person that you are. 

Stephen Wood: Yeah, this is the Multidi dimensionality of being a human being, trying to be reductive. It's easy if I'm trying to do demographics or if I'm trying to build a one fits all solution, but they only really fit everyone academically rather than in real life. 

Elle Beange: No, I completely agree.

Elle Beange: I

Music: dear, it's a hundred to one shot. 

Stephen Wood: So that brings us to the end of the quickfire round. I think what we're going to [00:16:00] focus on now is your expert topic, and that's inclusive design. So can you tell me a little bit about what inclusive design means to you, Elle? 

Elle Beange: Inclusive design is about designing for everyone, for all end users.

Elle Beange: And people sometimes, I think, get tripped off on how attainable this is, but In my opinion, this is where inclusive design differs from the concept of universal design. In essence, I think that there will very rarely be such a thing as a one size fits all solution, but inclusive design is all about creating flexibility and adaptability within processes to be able to include all potential end users within a service and kind of focusing in particular on underrepresented or underserved groups to make sure that they are considered and also involved in the design process.

Elle Beange: I think one thing that's a real problem is that historically and I can't comment on currently because it was a while ago that I studied but as designers we're quite often taught to design for people who fit in the middle section of the bell curve of our population and we're actively taught to almost unspoken but actively taught to exclude certain users and I'm not suggesting that this applies to every single context but [00:17:00] we have tried and tested examples of how when we consider the breadth of human diversity within the design process we have better outcomes for absolutely everyone.

Elle Beange: It's a real risk, I think to be teaching our up and coming designers in that way. 

Stephen Wood: So thanks for giving us a good definition of inclusive design. Do you believe that businesses are baking inclusion into their design process today, Elle? 

Elle Beange: It varies to be honest. I think everyone is on their own journey with inclusion, and in terms of getting businesses on board, I don't believe in cancel culture, or putting people down because of where they are, but I do really believe in creating.

Elle Beange: Rationales and arguments for why inclusion is so critical and how it can also benefit both businesses But also most importantly their customers in order to promote that buy in I think you have to really read the room and acknowledge the maturity levels of businesses before going into full steam to avoid the risk of making them think they're too far behind or have too much to do to catch up or Perhaps don't have the customer base to benefit from inclusive design in the first place we really don't want to create a culture where [00:18:00] organizations think that the challenges they face are insurmountable And so just don't bother trying And I also think that so many people think inclusive design is just about disability, and don't get me wrong, disability is a really big part of inclusive design, but there's so much more to consider.

Elle Beange: For example, like There's perpetuated stigma around disability where people think that disability just equals being a wheelchair user and It's essential to ensure that we are designing for this group in mind but I think it's nearly 25 percent of the population at this point is thought to have a disability or long term condition and Only about like I think it's eight percent or something of that population Use a wheelchair and so I think it's important to acknowledge the breadth of human need and I suppose approach different cases for inclusion in different ways.

Elle Beange: For example, the financial benefits organization. I wouldn't, won't go into it, but I'd recommend looking into the purple pound and also the brown, grey, and pink pound as well. But first and foremost, organisations should be prioritising inclusion because it's the right thing to do, i.

Elle Beange: e. kind of the moral case of it above all [00:19:00] else. 

Stephen Wood: Finding businesses that do the right thing is good. Many of them do the right thing when it's visible. You've talked about many businesses reducing this idea of inclusion into physical accessibility. Do you think we need to change the icon for accessibility?

Elle Beange: This is a, this is something that comes up a lot actually. And there's been a lot of different debates about it particularly in my last job, which was more focused on inclusion within the environment and things. And there's this argument for the fact that if you're looking at neurocognitive accessibility for People with learning disabilities or neurodivergent conditions and things like that.

Elle Beange: There's sometimes a real importance around visual familiarity, and so changing that signage could actually be really problematic for the populations that are, like, actively looking for it. And in terms of tactile signage as well, if you change the shape of that sign, if someone's looking for, I don't know, an accessible bathroom or something like that, and trying to use tactile signage, that could be a real problem for them too.

Elle Beange: I don't know that I'm the right person to have a, But I think it's definitely something [00:20:00] that should be debated. 

Stephen Wood: No, I think you've raised a really good point that actually there is familiarity although the icon of the person in the wheelchair is it may be seen to reduce this idea of Accessibility down to just one dimension.

Stephen Wood: It is something that has become universal and maybe recognized When you look at that icon and how it presents, you can see actually the angle of people's bodies change in the icon to show that they're active rather than passive. Often there are no handles on the back of the wheelchair to show that it's actually an active user chair rather than a chair that's pushed by a carer.

Stephen Wood: So there are elements of it that can be tweaked but you're right, it is something where people can see, I see, I know, I've got an understanding of what that could mean. So maybe I've under indexed on that one. 

Elle Beange: No, I completely agree. I suppose have a representation of what disabled population actually is and make sure that people feel represented within that kind [00:21:00] of, ownership or empowerment over the iconography, the language and things that are used to relate to that population.

Elle Beange: One other thing that I was actually going to share, an anecdote, around organizations not prioritizing inclusion because they don't think that they have customers that are disabled. I don't have like inclusion or accessibility needs, but one anecdote that I quite like to use is to strip it back to basics, say that your client owns a shop, and it has a step to get into it, and they say there's no point in installing a ramp because none of my customers are wheelchair users, and I think it really begs the question of, Whether they currently have no clientele that are wheelchair users because they're not offering inclusive services.

Elle Beange: And it's a really basic example that I think is just the most like tangible sort of thing for people to visualize. But I think it also brings to light an important point around temporary or situational needs. So for example, if you make that shop level access, not only are wheelchair users going to be able to access it, but also the people with them, if they're with like friends, family, people with like prams, pushchairs, people with luggage.

Elle Beange: Lots of other things like it just makes it easier for so many different people and I think that's something that we really need [00:22:00] to consider when we're trying to get buy in from clients and not take no for an answer I suppose because It's about everyone and it's about looking beyond to the realm of your own experience 

Stephen Wood: There's a fantastic 99 percent invisible episode about the curb cut movement in the US and how it you know It's something that just didn't benefit people who had it mobility issues through disability but also have that situational problem as well.

Stephen Wood: There are still a lot of places in the world and in the UK that are just not accessible despite the fact there's legislation that says they should be. But still, it shows that as designers we've got our work cut out for us. Not everything has been solved. So our next question, Elle, could you tell us about a project that's reflected inclusive needs that's really impressed you?

Stephen Wood: Which companies are embracing inclusive design well at the moment? 

Elle Beange: There's lots of examples, but one in particular that stands out to me, just the caveat, this isn't a project that I worked on at all, but I think my favorite example of this is an innovation called NaviLens which is a digital [00:23:00] wayfinding technology, which is primarily intended for blind or partially sighted people to help navigate environments.

Elle Beange: I first came across NaviLens when I was visiting the RNIB Royal National Institute of Blind People headquarters in London to actually find out about a different wayfinding technology. It was then that they introduced me to NaviLens, which was a very new technology at the time. But it's effectively these colorful QR type codes, which can be readily printed in all sizes and attached to different services.

Elle Beange: And they work with an app that picks up nearby codes using the device's camera and notifies the user that there's a QR code nearby for them to scan to read the content of. And the people that own those codes that have put them up can attach information to them. And the real cool thing I think here is that they can update it in real time to change with different circumstances.

Elle Beange: Say there's an event on or something and they want to change the information in a particular room I just think it's brilliant and they've installed this into lots of different public spaces globally now including euston station People might have seen it in euston station And they were starting to include them on things like grocery products to help Binary partially sighted people locate items in supermarkets.

Elle Beange: So I actually realized the other day my cereal box has it on 

Stephen Wood: [00:24:00] Really? 

Elle Beange: Yeah. Yeah, and I think a really great example of how this is being used Now, by RNIB, years later, is that they actually have a NaviLens code on every single staff badge. So that when a blind or partially sighted colleague is moving around the office, they are able to identify what colleague they're coming up to.

Elle Beange: And I just think it's such a wonderful example of what is ultimately a relatively simple but hugely effective technology that is inclusive and does not have to cost the air. 

Stephen Wood: If we think about the NaviLens example, you can think about, especially if you've got a QR code for office colleagues, you There's scope for mischief there, isn't there?

Stephen Wood: Is there anything that helps you to protect what that QR code says? Because if you think about supermarkets, there have been people who've gone in and they've updated the product description for products that come from, countries that they believe are not ethically great. Do you think there's scope for people hacking the Netherlands QR codes?

Elle Beange: I honestly, I can't say the thoughts [00:25:00] cross my mind to be honest. I mean they're owned and managed by a specific entity so it's not that anyone could just go into it. In terms of hacking, I honestly don't, I don't have a, I don't know to be honest, it's not something that's ever come up. 

Stephen Wood: There we go.

Stephen Wood: It's, maybe it's just my devious mind, just thinking about specific colleagues, but that's another matter. So we've talked a little bit about inclusive design, we've got some really great examples of people who are doing it well, and I think you've been very honest about. The challenges that businesses face when thinking about taking their first steps into the world of inclusive design.

Stephen Wood: One of the themes that is all pervasive at the moment is AI. Do you think that AI is going to be something that is going to help us to make design more inclusive? 

Elle Beange: It's a really good question. To caveat, I don't know loads about this subject yet. I'm aware that it's of massive growing importance and it's something that is being discussed [00:26:00] drastically in Deloitte at the moment.

Elle Beange: And I do see a lot of opportunity and potential to create more inclusive services, but I think one thing that is really important to stay cognizant of is the fact that. Existing data is both limited and also implicitly biased, so can't provide true inclusive or representative experiences as it stands.

Elle Beange: And I think when we're looking at developing AI related tooling, it's absolutely essential that we have representation tools. including diverse and intersectional voices when undertaking that kind of research. And from a separate sort of standpoint, it was something I actually read the other day, I cannot remember the statistic about AI and the impact on the planet and how, I don't know if you've heard about like green sort of coding and green sort of UX design and things like that, but effectively it was saying that to run a Google search versus to run a Google search.

Elle Beange: Like a chap GPT search, the amount of energy that's actually required to run it is massively higher. I can't remember how many times I saw. I'm not going to pretend. Okay. Yeah. That was actually the number I thought I had in my head, but I couldn't really remember. And I think it's important that we circle back around to what I mentioned earlier about the [00:27:00] interconnectivity between people and planet and the fact that our climate crisis, for example, is harming so many people across the world. And perhaps we're not seeing the full effects of it right here in the UK, for example, in this area of the world.

Elle Beange: But I think it's really important to always be bringing yourself back to how this is affecting people on planet and how they are so intertwined and interlinked. 

Stephen Wood: Yeah, it's a system, isn't it? And I just have the feeling that there is going to be more. money plowed into generative AI for the leisure industry and the gaming industry than there is into the how do we make user interfaces more easily accessible for people who are outside of that middle of the bell curve, which is where it would add incredible value.

Stephen Wood: But we always come back to this idea that In order to do that, there is a cost, and if we do one thing, we have to choose to not do another. How do we make those choices? Is it with an ethical lens and a lens that [00:28:00] prioritizes inclusion, or is it one that prioritizes shareholder value? 

Elle Beange: Yeah, I know what, I know my opinion on that, but I think we should always be, I think we should always be.

Elle Beange: Without question, we'd be prioritizing people and planet. It's, it should never even be a question, I suppose it's just capitalism, isn't it, ? 

Stephen Wood: It is the system where we're working in. Unfortunately, in order to get access to develop things, we need funding to get funding. We need to talk to people that provide funding and the people that provide funding.

Stephen Wood: Typically want a return, and that return typically isn't a hundred percent a return in terms of equitable and ethical output. But there we go. 

Elle Beange: Brilliant. I think something that's quite interesting is a book that I'm reading quite slowly actually at the moment, but it's about abolition and feminism and one concept that it discusses is around.

Elle Beange: The fact that we effectively can't change everything overnight. We can't completely tear down and reconstruct systems overnight. So it's important to look at things in terms of short, medium and long term as well. What's our ultimate goal? Where [00:29:00] do we want to get to? How do we work towards that? But also in the meantime, what can we do to make things better for people, That are being affected by certain issues in the immediate and then also in the medium term like how do we build it up?

Elle Beange: So It might feel counterintuitive, to be doing something that, if you disagree fundamentally with the system, creating like a solution within that. But I think it actually can be really impactful and we can't just expect people to sit around and wait for however many years for something to be completely uphold.

Elle Beange: But actually we need to improve things in the now as well, like as long as it doesn't replace the long term work that we also need to do. Doesn't just feel like sticking a plaster over a problem. 

Stephen Wood: Absolutely. I think, yeah, the chances of radically changing things instantly are probably zero, but there is an opportunity to go in and work from within.

Stephen Wood: And as long as we don't overestimate what we can do in the short term, but underestimate and be less ambitious than we should be around what we can do in the long term, that is one way that we can drive [00:30:00] change in a complex system. 

Elle Beange: Do I like? We shouldn't settle. There's so much conversation about what's realistic and what we can do and about settling.

Elle Beange: I just don't think we should settle. I think as humans and as designers, we should be able to expect more for ourselves for future generations. We should be able to expect better for everyone that lives on this planet. Everything is circumstantial and we shouldn't just take things for granted. I think, yeah, we should be able to be in a position to demand something better for everyone.

Stephen Wood: Absolutely. That's a great quote to end on. We need to be in a position to demand something better and something better for everyone. That's brilliant. Thanks very much for sharing your journey into inclusive design and sharing all of those great examples. Thanks very much for agreeing to be a guest on Service Design Yap and we look forward to talking with you in the future.

Stephen Wood: Thank 

Elle Beange: you so much. It's been a pleasure.

Music: I've got an idea. It's a hundred to one shot 

Stephen Wood: Service Design app is a production from the Service Design [00:31:00] Network, UK chapter. It's hosted by me, Stephen Wood with production assistance from Jean Watanya. Music is by Duck Ersatz .